What You Must Know Before Buying A Used Car - The Podcast and Video

"SteveLehto" (stevelehto)
08/13/2015 at 09:30 • Filed to: None

Although my practice is primarily Lemon Law, I get more calls about used car purchases than anything else. Often, there is little I can do for them. But, if they had done some things BEFORE they bought the car, they might have avoided trouble in the first place.

So, this week’s Lehto’s Law is aimed at this. I condensed as much information on the topic into one segment. What things can you do and what should you do to protect yourself in a used car purchase. And there are two highlights you want to watch/listen for. One: I admit to making one of the dumbest mistakes I talk about - when I was in law school. Two: I give a shout out to Doug DeMuro and one of the truest things he ever wrote about. (But don’t tell Doug - it’ll just go to his head.)

So here is the audio: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

And here is the video:

And that thing at the top is not a car. It is a Sno-Cat. I was looking for “For Sale” signs in my photo collection and ran across it. It was used. I did not buy it.

Follow me on Twitter: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

Hear my podcast on iTunes: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

Steve Lehto has been practicing law for 23 years, almost exclusively in consumer protection and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! He wrote !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .

This website may supply general information about the law but it is for informational purposes only. This does not create an attorney-client relationship and is not meant to constitute legal advice, so the good news is we’re not billing you by the hour for reading this. The bad news is that you shouldn’t act upon any of the information without consulting a qualified professional attorney who will, probably, bill you by the hour.

DISCUSSION (43)

Birddog > SteveLehto
08/13/2015 at 10:18

Trust but Verify.

Back in 1990ish I went with a friend to wander a local Ford lot.

We found a 1982 or 83 Pontiac J2000 wagon on the lot that looked like they just took it in. Neat car. Black on Black with a manual trans. My buddy was sold before the sleasleman walked out.

Sure enough, fresh trade that hadn’t even gone through detail yet. And of course we got “the story”.. Little old lady traded it in bla bla.

He gets the keys for a test drive and apparently this “ Old Lady” had a severe addiction to TAB cola and Snickers bars. The rear footwells and cargo floor were full of cans and wrappers.

Didn’t trust the sales guy after that but that did become my friend’s first car.

Skamanda > SteveLehto
08/13/2015 at 10:18

I can’t help but think this video would’ve been golden to a few dozen (or more) people who bought those cars that’ve been sitting along Woodward for the last couple months, who will instead be cursing their purchases as they watch everyone else’s cars cruising this weekend...

Segador > SteveLehto
08/13/2015 at 10:20

I feel like the “get the car inspected” mantra is more true when you’re buying from a private seller than from a dealer, especially if the car is CPO. If it’s a decent CPO program, they’ve already had master mechanics inspect the car, and any (within reason) problems that crop up are their responsibility to take care of.

In my personal experience, the premium you pay to buy a CPO car has always been worth it, and in general, I’d recommend that everyone buy CPO as opposed to “AS-IS” if they possibly can.

SteveLehto > Segador
08/13/2015 at 10:22

It’s amazing how many calls I get on CPO cars with problems. I wouldn’t trust it.

Segador > SteveLehto
08/13/2015 at 10:31

That’s too bad. My experience with BMW’s CPO program, at least for the last 5 years and 2 vehicles, has been very good. Friends have reported similar experiences with Audi and Volvo CPO programs.

RedComet > SteveLehto
08/13/2015 at 10:34

I wish this video would have been made about 6 months sooner. I bought an ‘85 Scirocco in February with a known fuel pump issue and took a risk. Granted, the fuel pump was the only issue and I did fix it on my own with just a manual but I took a huge leap of faith and it could have been far worse. Needless to say, great advice and I sent this to my friend who is currently looking at buying his first used car.

RustyOcean > SteveLehto
08/13/2015 at 10:35

The inspection rule just saved me this weekend. Private sale, seemed like a nice little 1996 Infiniti G20 w/5 speed. Looked good inside and out (for the price), and ran and drove well. Took it to my local mechanic for his $89 inspection, some of the best money I’ve ever spent. Brakes were nearly worn out, power steering pump was leaking, and clutch was slipping. Repairs (and probably parts alone) would easily cost more than the price of the car. Told the owner thanks, but no thanks.

Prophet of hoon > SteveLehto
08/13/2015 at 10:37

funny, I almost bought a sno-car that was on government liquidations... one more bid and it could have been mine (one more bid and I’d be divorced as well, so maybe a good thing?)

Still, I’ll continue to ignore your advice ;)

some of my purchases

Kinja'd!!!

ntvnyer > SteveLehto
08/13/2015 at 10:45

I agree about having doubts about CPO. Seems to me that in many dealerships it’s just a marked up mechanical insurance/warranty program. I have a sister who paid up for a 2 year old Benz that was CPO and failed NJ inspection a few days later. I myself went to look at a CPO Honda for my daughter and it had a headlight out. This particular Honda dealer offered me the car with the CPO or without it at a substantial discount. I took the discount and went with an outside warranty company and saved $$$$. CPO is the equivalent of buying a warranty. I woul dlove to hear if any dealer employees can shed some light.

Prophet of hoon > SteveLehto
08/13/2015 at 10:46

Directly to your advice, it’s a rare case when someone comes to me and they say “I never saw it coming” most say things like “well, I did suspect something was wrong”.... trust your inner voice when it says “run.” On the other hand, if your voices in your head are screaming “BUT IT NOW” - take to an inspection, ESPECIALLY if you’re a pretty good mechanic. As you know, I build cars for fun (and as an effort to cope with clients who ignore my advice) and I always take my wife (who knows where the gas goes, sometimes) and listen to her advice on the car. She doesn’t get enamored with the cars - and she’s really good at pinpointing problem cars.

And finally, don’t buy a car that needs work from a mechanic expecting a simple fix... especially not a (hypothetically speaking) a 2002 S10 pickup with a transmission issue.

Skamanda > Segador
08/13/2015 at 10:51

So the first Subaru I bought from a dealer was CPO. They had all the paperwork saying they’d done the inspection and repairs and maintenance and all. I bought it in the dark, so I didn’t notice a few things that would’ve made me go, “Hmmm...”

One of the fog lights was cracked, both front wheel well liners were shattered, the brakes had about 5% pad left, and the biggest cost soak in a single repair I’ve ever had to deal with.... At 48k miles it had the original plugs from the factory, one of which came apart and fell into the cylinder a month or so later, scoring the cylinder wall, piston, and head. Since it wasn’t the hardened, partially closed deck block of the WRX, that meant they couldn’t just bore out the cylinders and replace a head. I needed a new engine, to the tune of $7,000.

Every single one of those things would’ve been dealt with, if they’d actually done the CPO inspection and repairs.

Skamanda > ntvnyer
08/13/2015 at 10:53

CPO is nothing like buying a warranty. Read my other comment in this thread about my Subaru experience.

I tried to make them cover the repairs, because they had sold it as a CPO car. No dice, and at the very least I lacked the budget to take time off work to spend in court, even if I wouldn’t have to pay the legal fees.

A warranty would’ve replaced my engine and brakes, at the very least. Instead, 100% of that came out of my pocket.

YouFredo > Segador
08/13/2015 at 10:55

If...

EricG > SteveLehto
08/13/2015 at 11:00

I was actually going to ask if this applied to CPO cars. Thanks for answering my question.

Segador > Skamanda
08/13/2015 at 11:03

You should have sued them.

Subaru claims a 152-point inspection, which they obviously never did. They claim 100k of powertrain coverage, which they obviously never honored. Without knowing more about your situation, I have no idea whether you, or the dealer, should have known about and replaced the plugs, but it sounds like something that Subaru should have noticed and dealt with, and a fairly easy win for you in court.

The rest was the fact that, as you admitted, you didn’t perform even a cursory visual inspection of the vehicle, which would have revealed a great deal of these issues.

I’m not trying to sound harsh, but a small amount of work on your part would have saved a great amount of dollars later.

Skamanda > Segador
08/13/2015 at 11:11

My biggest fault was buying the car in the dark. The problem with that was, I was about 100 miles from home, and the transmission in my Beetle had completely shat itself. I had 4 dealerships on this one road to pick from, and it boiled down to the choice between the Impreza, a Saab Viggen with 110k miles on it, a Volvo XC60 with 170k miles, or an AWD Pontiac Vibe in pretty poor shape. I had to buy one of them, or call a cab to get home. By the time I’d weighed the options and decided a 48k mile Subaru was the best choice, the sun had gone down. I still should’ve asked for a flashlight to look under the car and whatnot. It’d at least have clued me into the car having been in an accident that wasn’t on the Carfax, and I’d have ponied up the extra $3k to buy a new one instead.

I didn’t have the option of taking the time off work to spend in court, and at the time was naive enough to believe that I didn’t have much of a chance of winning, so I’d be on the hook for a bunch of legal expenses. Hindsight is 20/20, and I absolutely should’ve gotten a lawyer involved...

Segador > Skamanda
08/13/2015 at 11:16

I feel for you man. I’ve made some seriously poor automotive choices in the past too.

Skamanda > Segador
08/13/2015 at 11:21

I like to think I’ve gotten better about it since then, but realistically I’m only a car and a half past then. Bought a MINI, was super picky about the dealership I picked, and I’m still pretty happy with it. Bought a used Subaru, it was turning into a money pit, and I offloaded it before anything major went.

We’ll see how things go with my next purchase...heh...heh...heh...

Ad_absurdum_per_aspera > SteveLehto
08/13/2015 at 11:31

Stick your head in the window of that Sno-Cat if you can and see if there’s a placard on the dashboard. The last one of my acquaintance had a great approach to user instruction: a metal sign that read something like (it’s been a long time), “You are riding over the snow in a heated cab. If you fail to observe the following procedures you will finish the trip on MUSCLE-DRAULIC.” Point made!

ChrisinKY > Segador
08/13/2015 at 11:44

I just drove 10 hours round trip to a dealer to buy a CPO MKZ, got there and the front/rear bumper had been (badly) repainted and the passenger side rocker had a foot + long scratch down the side to the black plastic, and a major dent in one of the doors. They thought I was crazy for walking away.... No way was I spending CPO money on a car with a halfassed buy here pay here paint job cover up....

IsEveryoneStupid? > SteveLehto
08/13/2015 at 11:48

Excellent advice...thanks Steve.

Segador > ChrisinKY
08/13/2015 at 11:51

That’s insane. I wouldn’t have bought it either. That doesn’t speak very well for Ford’s CPO program.

ninjagin > SteveLehto
08/13/2015 at 12:27

Have you got anything similar about selling?

dottingTscrossingIs > SteveLehto
08/13/2015 at 13:15

Hey Steve, what would it take for you to purchase a car from a rental company (Avis, Enterprise, Hertz, etc)? I’m not talking about buying an auction car, but buying the former rental car directly from the rental company? Would the price have to substantially lower than market-value or would you still avoid them outright?

ChrisinKY > Segador
08/13/2015 at 13:20

Waiting for a response from corporate, normally I wouldn’t have bothered, but these guys called me, in no particular order, “F*cking stupid”, “retarded” and “an idiot”. That was the MANAGER. It was like they were trying to get me to shame buy it? The other best lines “did we paint that one?” - really you paint your CPO cars?!?!? and “We have new Lincolns here that look worse than that off the truck” - I left just wow....

RocketJsquirrel > SteveLehto
08/13/2015 at 13:22

I bought a low mileage Honda Ridgeline from a dealer with a Honda Certified guarantee. One small after purchase repair (tailgate latch adjustment) and 70K later we are still happy. Yes I paid a little more at the dealer but in this case it was worth it. As always, your mileage may vary.

Andrew T. Maness > SteveLehto
08/13/2015 at 13:50

Great stuff as always Steve. I have a PPI scheduled for next week on a 1970 W115 220, seller is “highly motivated” to move the car as the lease on his lot is ending soon. He has 15 cars with nowhere to go, so pending the PPI coming back clean, I’m going to be in a great bargaining position. He wants $4k, I want to get it for $1,500. Will let you know how it goes.

Oh, off topic but have you ever considered opening a deli and having a special side called, “Leto Slaw?”

P Ride > SteveLehto
08/13/2015 at 14:07

I almost bought a car from a private party where, after I agreed to the price, he explained that I couldn’t buy the car yet because he was going to use it as a trade-in for a new car at his dealership. I would be buying the car at the same price through the dealership.

Is this sketchy or smart?

IDriveEveryDay > SteveLehto
08/13/2015 at 14:33

As always, another great installation of knowledge! Thanks Steve.

Jarrett - [BRZ Boi] > SteveLehto
08/13/2015 at 15:20

The title part really resonated with me. When I went to the dealer for my Mazda, I was ready to lay out a substantial chunk of change when I was hit by the “Oh, by the way, this was a former rental”. (“No wonder it was such a competitive price!”, my head says).

I bought it anyways, and lucked out. 40,000 problem-free kms and counting.

Also looked at a used car where I drove 50km to see, only to realize that the seller “forgot” to mention that the car was accident repaired in the ad. It was not priced as an accident-repaired car. I ran from that one.

Takuro Spirit > SteveLehto
08/13/2015 at 16:32

CPO’s are just used cars with a longer (in most cases) manufacturer warranty. The inspection process is the same as any used car, there’s just a few things that are looked at a little differently, depending on the car maker.

Things like minimum brake wear, tire wear, MATCHING tires, and a lack of accidents reported to Carfax, and year/mileage are what Mazda looks at. They also demand that the oil and filters be changed, but beyond that its all small stuff. And just like with any used cars, problems arise.

I think its that with CPO’s, people assume that the car is held to a much higher standard than the crap on Big John’s Used Car Emporium down the road.

They’re really not.

SteveLehto > P Ride
08/13/2015 at 19:55

Sounds sketchy. Why not take your cash in as a down payment?

SteveLehto > dottingTscrossingIs
08/13/2015 at 19:56

Yes, or a gun to my head. Sorry, but I know how people drive them.

SteveLehto > ninjagin
08/13/2015 at 19:59

Yes. https://soundcloud.com/stevelehto/adv…

Noah - Now with more boost. > SteveLehto
08/14/2015 at 00:39

Perfect timing! I’m on the hunt for used japanese luxobarges, checking one out tomorrow. This video killed my interest, which is a great thing... now I can be objective. And get a damn inspection no matter what.

e holder > Segador
08/14/2015 at 11:27

Most people have no problems with ANY car they buy! The real problems are in the minority.

e holder > Skamanda
08/14/2015 at 11:31

Wow - you bought a used car for only $3k less than a new one?

Shoulda bought the Viggen - mine has been nearly trouble-free for 160k miles.

Skamanda > e holder
08/14/2015 at 11:38

It was a seriously tough decision, but I wanted to try something with AWD. The Viggen was in pretty decent shape for its age, and still pulled really strong. The $3k off the price would’ve been a great bargain, if they hadn’t lied about the CPO stuff. The car was totally trouble free other than the throwout bearing starting to go at like 195k miles - other than the things that should’ve been fixed by the CPO stuff.

Chain-Chomp2 > SteveLehto
08/29/2015 at 21:59

Let me preface this by saying there’s a reason she’s my ex. My daughter decides to buy a car. I told her over and over again do not buy a car from the gas station, aka the curb stoners. I also told her I’ll help you find a good car, just ask when you’re ready. Long story short her and her mother go to the ex’s main squeeze cousin’s gas station to look at a used 2001 Mercury Tracer. I don’t know what the financial deal was because I think they were too embarrassed to tell me. I think they put a deposit on it which they got back. Any way at the 11th hour I convinced my daughter to tell me where the car is that she’s buying so I could look at it. I went and looked it over realizing that it’s a used car and it’s not going to be perfect. I was looking for the show stoppers. The first red flag was that it looked like it had been sitting under the trees for a while. Moving on I looked everything over and I couldn’t find too much wrong with it other than that... Then I opened the coolant reservoir, that puzzled me. There were some type of a floaters in there. Next was the interior. Looking it over didn’t look great but it was 10 year old car. I put the air conditioning on; nice and cool, great but that just means it was functional today. I then decide switch it over to heat. Who checks the heat in the middle of the summer? Turns out that the heat that was coming out was lukewarm like maybe a hundred degrees or so. It was at that point that the alarm bells went off. This car obviously had a cooling system issue. At the very least it was a radiator leak that somebody put silver powdered radiators sealer into the system to seal it up, that stuff does work but always plugs the heater core. At the worst it had a cracked head. This also explained the parked under a tree; sell that car in the summer when they won’t notice the heat. I confronted the garage owner telling him that it wasn’t putting out any heat, it had a blocked heater core. He doubled down telling me, “That’s in the defrost mode. They modulated it with the air conditioning so it’s not too hot or it will crack the windshield.” At that point I nearly lost it telling him, “Hey Asshole, I have a mechanical background. Don’t piss in my ear and tell me is raining! I called the ex and told her, “I don’t know what kind of money you’ve got into this car but get it back if you can. It has a blocked heater core and if you call Ford you’ll find out that it’s 800 - $1,200 repair. That’s the least of your worries because there’s other issues with the cooling system they caused the heater core to block. Come October Miss Chain Chomp isn’t going to be happy when she finds out the car has no heat.” They ended up getting their money back or so they told me. It took another month but I found my daughter a 2004 Honda Accord with just over 100,000 miles it’s been a good car for over 3 years now. Moral of the above story: Nobody fucks you like a buddy.

Tomorrow I’ll tell you about the kid who providence set in my path and I later gave a curb stoner a choice: return his $10k, new engine installed at a Toyota dealer, or deal with DMV. Which choice do you think he opted for?

Chain-Chomp2 > SteveLehto
08/29/2015 at 22:18

Might want to read the end again. There was an edit with a question...and could you get me out of the grays?

SteveLehto > Chain-Chomp2
08/29/2015 at 22:28

An edit in the podcast or the article?

Chain-Chomp2 > SteveLehto
08/29/2015 at 22:36

My post. Didn’t expect a reply so fast. Here it is:

SteveLehto > Chain-Chomp2
08/29/2015 at 22:48

Got it. Thanks for the note.